“Imagine: No water to drink, or even make coffee with. No water to shower, flush the toilet, or do laundry. Hospitals would close without water. Firefighters couldn’t put out fires and farmers couldn’t water their crops”.
That statement was taken from The Value of Water: Imagine a Day Without Water Campaign website. Here in the North Central Region Water Network, that last sentence rings especially poignantly. After all, what is agriculture and farming without water? Although seemingly a simple question, the possibility of having to face this question head-on may become more real as our climate continues to change.
It is important now to be aware of the role of water in our world, our country, and our state levels. Without water, many of the everyday aspects of life we often take for granted may suffer. By supporting water education, agriculture research, and water programs in our region, the NCRWN is helping to make sure an actual day without water never comes to fruition.
We asked some key members of our organization three important questions:
Naeem Kalwar, Extension Area Specialist/Soil Health at North Dakota State University
Chad Watts, Conservation Technology Information Center
Nathan Meyer, Program Leader in Natural Resources for the University of Minnesota Extension Center for Agriculture, Food and Natural Resources
Imagine a Day Without Water is simply a campaign to raise awareness, to spark discussions, and to have people question our water systems and how they function. Continue supporting water programs, continue furthering agricultural research, and continue developing smarter ways to structure water so we never have to imagine a day without our most precious resource.
The following interviews have been edited for style and clarity.
Conservation is a word that has sparked in popularity over the past few years. Often paired within stories around climate change, pollution, and negative narratives, conservation is seen as a modern necessity to a modern problem. While conservation is most definitely an important part of modern society, it has been around longer than most people think. In agricultural states, conservation has been an essential tool in educating, modernizing, and sustaining farming industries.
One organization that has been pivotal in tackling the multi-tiered challenge of conservation is the Soil and Water Conservation Society (or SWCS). The science-based natural resource conservation organization was established nearly 75 years ago and was initially developed as an organization to educate on simple agricultural practices like erosion control. SWCS has taken its deep-rooted history in farmland conservation and combined it with communication and advocacy efforts to increase awareness of the latest conservation research. With an ever-evolving climate, planet, and population, the organization is continually adapting to meet the new demands of each generation.
One way SWCS keeps on top of cutting-edge research and technologies is through their International Annual Conference which brings together agriculture, conservation, research, and scientific professionals together to share information and educate each other.
The SWCS International Annual Conference was recently hosted in Madison, Wisconsin and brought leaders from a variety of backgrounds to focus on the value of their connections. The conference centered on how collaboration and communication are vital in SWCS and in all areas of conservation.
SCWS President Jim Gulliford has been actively serving in the organization for over 30 years and has helped SWSC adapt to new challenges, while still remaining firm on the organization’s core values. Gulliford notes the SWSC annual conferences as one of the primary strengths of the organization.
“We gather once a year in what we call our annual conference to share information: what we’ve learned over the past year, the results of projects, research, activities, all of those things because just to perform a project complete a project isn’t nearly as important as to interact and network with people who can find value from it. The purpose of our conference is to add value to individuals’ work as they share it with others,” Gulliford said.
“We chose the title Conservation Connections [for this year’s conference] because it really gets to the heart of the challenge we face,” Gulliford said in response to the meaning of this year’s theme. “None of our issues can be singularly solved, by the farmer, the scientist, the conservation professional in the field, the agribusiness, the university, the government agencies. The connections are important, how they collaborate to take advantage of their specific skills. All of these things have to come together. The problems we face are complex. The solutions are complex and requires multiple disciplines and individuals to make it happen. We really wanted to make a point this year that it’s all about how these agencies and organizations connect to make a difference.”
Although Gulliford has completed his run as Executive Director of the Soil and Water Conservation Society, new leaders are rising to the challenge to keep SWCS a key player in conservation. Rest assured, even though Gulliford’s experience is unmatched, he’s not worried about the future of the organization.
The conference highlighted the future of SWCS and the next steps, including the announcement of Clare Lindahl as the new Chief Executive Officer. Not only did the conference connect organizations, address important water issues, and showcase speakers presenting on a variety of conservation topics, but it also recognized members of SWSC who have shown exemplary commitment to the organization. UW-Madison and UW-Extension’s very own Francisco Arriaga became an SWCS Fellow at this year’s conference.
“[The Fellow Award] recognizes the work and activities of members in [the Soil and Water Conservation Society] who fulfilled the mission of the society,” Arriaga said. “It goes beyond just having publications or things like that. It also looks at all the activities that you’ve done: communication, international activities, [and] other things you’ve been involved with.”
Arriaga was recognized through his work over the past ten years. After volunteering as vice president and eventually president of the SWCS Alabama chapter, he came to UW-Madison in 2012. He currently serves as the Wisconsin chapter president.
“I’ve been a member [of the SWCS] since about 1996. Being a state specialist with extension, a lot of activities I do are actually not only helping farmers but also educating all of our peers on issues related to soil and water conservation and water quality issues around the state and beyond,” Arriaga said. “So I’ve been invited regionally to go and talk in different states in the Midwest. I’ve also been invited to speak internationally, in Brazil for example. [The Fellow Award] is kind of a combination of all those activities and all that work.”
The 2017 SWCS Conference recognized the individual contributions of great leaders like Gulliford and Arriaga while emphasizing the bright future of SWCS and the power in its connections.
One early morning last week, my sister’s blue Honda pulled into my driveway, just as the sun was turning the branches of the neighbor’s oak tree golden. We live about 10 minutes apart, so we get together a few times a week for a run or bike ride, and to catch up on family news.
This morning she walked up the front stairs and as I opened the door to let her in she handed me an old publication – flaking, yellowed, and lightly dusted with mold and mildew.
“Look at the date,” she said. I was afraid to unfold the thing or turn the pages for fear it would crumble in my hands. In truth it was not as fragile as I had first thought. So I put it down on my desk and opened it so I could see the front page. October 14, 1893.
Gently examining the time-stiffened pages further, I saw that it was a copy of the Orange Judd Farmer, published near the conclusion of the six-month Chicago World’s Fair. The fair showcased a newly rebuilt city, 22 years after the Great Chicago Fire; exhibits from 46 nations; and the latest in architecture, art, transportation, urban planning, engineering, science and agriculture. Among the ads for Spencer’s Full Circle Hay and Straw Press, the Staver Buckeye Feed Mill and Power, and the Page Woven Wire Fence Co., an article on the second page caught my attention: Saving Manures.
The article starts:
It is not necessary for Experiment Stations to tell us that manures, kept continually exposed to rain and sun, must lose their essential elements, and that, too, very rapidly. We see very often streams of dark, black liquid issuing from fertilizer heaps, and perhaps running down some slope into pond or brook, where the crops are not liable to receive much benefit from them. Why are these leaks permitted and how remedied, are the questions. The first is hard to answer, but the second is no very difficult solution. Mix manure liberally with absorbents, and keep under cover.
It concludes with this sentence:
The matter of saving manure can not be looked into too closely. It is folly to depend on commercial fertilizers when much of our own manure goes to waste.
I was struck by the idea that this article could have been written today – nearly 125 years later. I must confess the realization gave me mixed feelings. My first reaction was one of comfort. Why? In part, because I had just attended a manure composting demonstration as part of the 2017 North American Manure Expo at Endres Berryridge Farm, LLC. Jeff Endres, one of three brothers that operate the dairy farm, is experimenting with manure composting for the heifer calf part of their operation. Jeff’s composting operation uses the same basic practices recommended in 1893 – Mix manure liberally with absorbents, and keep under cover. There was comfort in being reminded that some best practices never change.
During the tour, Endres shared three primary reasons for looking more closely at composting as an innovative manure management strategy: yield boosts (alfalfa), operational flexibility (spreading on growing crops), and keeping nutrients on the farm and out of the water (lower mobility and longer spreading windows to further minimize runoff risk).
Given all the benefits of managing manure through composting, my second reaction was a bit of frustration mixed with curiosity. How do the fundamentals become lost? When we respond to changing market conditions and new technologies, how do we keep the fundamentals intact?
Then I realized that as much as we know about managing manure, we probably know even more about fundamental best practices for communicating information. Humans have always passed important lessons down from generation to generation, through relationships and stories. Even in the age of automation, social media, and big data, we rely on relationships – person to person and smaller group communication with trusted sources – as we attempt to sort fact from fiction. And we know the value of stories for translating complex ideas and helping them stick in our individual memories and our networks. While we need science to help us analyze information, we need compelling stories to communicate that information effectively. While funding for manure management and other conservation practices is critical, we know that investing in a sufficient number of well-trained people to assist with conservation decision-making is a fundamental best practice.
A lot has changed since 1893 Chicago World’s Fair; however, we cannot lose hard-fought lessons that are still valid today. We know that composting, saving, and properly distributing manure nutrients makes sense for agriculture. And while the Orange Judd Farmer said we didn’t need the Experiment Stations to tell us that, we do need someone to keep speaking up. Perhaps the Experiment Stations, the Extension system founded nearly 20 years later, the Natural Resources Conservation Service, conservation NGOs, local conservation districts, and insightful farmer and ag industry organizations, all working together, can help us keep ideas that have anchored agriculture and rural communities for hundreds and probably thousands of years front and center.
If you would like to contribute ideas for the future of the North Central Region Water Network, feel free to send me a note at email@example.com.
Rebecca Power, Network Director
The North Central Region Water Network is pleased to announce the North Central Region Water Network Impact 2020 Initiatives and Capacity Building Initiatives for 2018. Thanks to the Network Leadership Team, Regional Administrative Council, and initiative leads for their work on these successful proposals. Special thanks to North Central Region Extension Directors for providing funding and multistate collaborations to address water issues in the North Central Region.
Please share this news with appropriate audiences in your states and professional networks. Several of the teams are still seeking additional collaborators from other states and partners, so feel free to contact their leaders or me if you have suggestions.
Empower Educators to Improve Water Quality by Adoption of Soil Health Practices ($89,971) – led by Curell and Gross (Michigan State University) with supporting leadership from Iowa State University, the University of Missouri, University of Nebraska-Lincoln, and the University of Wisconsin
Providing the Foundation for Lasting Climate Education in the North Central Region ($89,283) – led by Laura Edwards (South Dakota State University) with supporting leadership from the University of Illinois, K-State, Iowa State University, Michigan State University, the University of Minnesota, the University of Missouri, University of Nebraska-Lincoln, North Dakota State University, Purdue University, and the Ohio State University
Determining the GAPS in Youth Water Education in the North Central Region ($7,000) – led by Amy Timmerman (University of Nebraska-Lincoln) with supporting leadership from Michigan State University, the University of Minnesota, the University of Missouri, the Ohio State University, and the University of Wisconsin.
Online Stormwater Core Course – Enhanced Course Development ($7,000) – led by Katie Pekarek (University of Nebraska-Lincoln) with supporting leadership from the University of Illinois, Iowa State University, the University of Minnesota, North Dakota State University, and Purdue University
Charting New Waters with Purpose – NCRWN Land Grant and Tribal College/University Collaborations Planning Grant Proposal ($7,000) – led by Dan Downing (University of Missouri) and Charles Barden (K-State) with supporting leadership from Michigan State University, South Dakota State University, and the University of Nebraska-Lincoln
Humanity has 20 years to shape up or face mass extinction. Sounds scary, right? If this headline popped up on your news feed, it would be next-to-impossible to ignore your curiosity and not click. However, once you dive into the article written by the New York Post, check a few sources, and compare them to other publications, you would discover that this headline is the epitome of the modern phenomena of clickbait.
The internet has been an instrumental tool in communicating and educating environmental issues to the ears of the masses. However, with any internet entity comes the potential for clickbait, which – put simply – is hyperbolic (often false) content designed solely to manifest clicks. Online environmental news is no stranger to the problematic consequences that come along with it.
Last October, Outside Magazine, the New York Post, The Independent and other media outlets released an “obituary” for the Great Barrier Reef, causing an backlash from both journalistic and environmental organizations. These articles ignored the actual work, progress, and agreed-upon science about the reef’s health. A CNN article written by Sophie Lewis simply titled “The Great Barrier Reef is Not Actually Dead” fired back quickly. Responding to the pseudo-death, Lewis stated, “there’s a difference between dead and dying.” And that’s where the issue of clickbait and exaggeration lay.
Lewis’ piece criticized the carelessness and unsupported claims of the original post, citing prominent members of the scientific community who work tirelessly to help protect the reef. Lewis stated that scientists are increasingly worried about exaggeration when it comes to sensitive topics like climate change. As Lewis cites, “Professor John Pandolfi from the ARC Centre at the University of Queensland has expressed hope. ‘It is critically important now to bolster the resilience of the reef, and to maximize its natural capacity to recover.’”
Some might argue that making these bold, eye-catching claims are progressive and essential for environmental science to engage the public. However, by over exaggerating and overlooking real science, true progressive action cannot be achieved. Take a look at New York Magazine’s cover story, published just a few days ago. “The Uninhabitable Earth” by David Wallace-Wells tells stories of imminent doomsday scenarios that will destroy us in a fiery blaze or a suffocating tidal wave.
Not unlike the backlash to the Great Barrier Reef “death” last year, the scientific community was quick to respond. An article published by Climate Feedback employed 16 research and university scientists to dissect the New York Magazine piece, which came to the conclusion that the scientific credibility was low. The climate professionals explained the dangers of overstating the science of our planet to the public.
There is a scientific consensus that our climate is undergoing rapid change. However, clickbaiting and over exaggerating a narrative of hopelessness is just as dangerous as ignoring the issues completely.
As scientists, educators, environment leaders, and conservation professionals, we need to hold our selves to a higher standard.
Washington Post journalists Michael E. Mann, Susan Joy Hassol and Tom Toles dissect the issue of “climate doomism” in their article responding to Wallace Wells’ piece. They summarize the type of work and narratives environmental professionals need to do in their closing remarks:
“It is important to communicate both the threat and the opportunity in the climate challenge. Those paying attention are worried, and should be, but there are also reasons for hope. There is still time to avoid the worst outcomes, if we act boldly now, not out of fear, but out of confidence that the future is largely in our hands.”
In last month’s column, I wrote that Kansas is green this season. The same above average rainfall greening up the rolling hills of eastern Kansas is also greening up lakes and rivers across the Upper Midwest and causing alarming predictions for a large dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico this year.
Check out this image from the University of Wisconsin-Madison Center for Limnology. Is that the Caribbean, you ask? Looks like the marine blue of the tropics, you say. Nope, it’s the Yahara River, Madison Wisconsin, on June 16th, overwhelmed with blue-green algae, or cyanobacteria. If you read the Center’s blog post and look at the pictures (caution: several disturbing photos of dead things) you will see why overwhelmed is an appropriate word.
At the other end of the Mississippi River, scientists estimate that we will see the third largest dead zone on record in the Gulf of Mexico, disrupting shrimp markets and the livelihoods and quality of life for many of our downstream neighbors.
In the Great Lakes Basin, NOAA and Heidelberg University predict that Lake Erie algae blooms will be of moderate severity in 2017, once again threatening the drinking water of approximately 11 million people.
We know that nitrogen and phosphorus from farmland and urban landscapes, relocated from land to water by heavy rain events, is leading to these dangerous, expensive, and sad events. Yes, sad – no one likes to see polluted water, dead fish, or hear parents telling children that they cannot go swimming on a hot summer day.
While it would be easy to get disheartened or default to a new, poorer status quo, constructive conversations about conditions like these can mobilize people around clear solutions like more perennial cover on our landscapes; taking unprofitable land out of agricultural production; increasing water use efficiency so less irrigation water is lost to lakes, reservoirs and streams; revitalizing our soil so that it holds more water and nutrients where they’re needed; and urban/rural partnerships for more cost effective nutrient management.
It’s true that in some cases the systems we have in place do not support the best choices for water and the people that use it. We created those systems; together we can update them to reflect the new knowledge and new management systems of today.
If you would like to contribute ideas for the future of the North Central Region Water Network, feel free to send me a note at firstname.lastname@example.org.
Rebecca Power, Network Director
“Snakeheads have been present in the White River Basin in Arkansas since 2008 and have been steadily expanding their range towards the Mississippi River,” says MDWFP Delta fisheries biologist Nathan Aycock. “The Mississippi River provides these fish with access to connected oxbows like Lake Whittington as well as the Yazoo and Big Black Rivers.”
Northern Snakeheads appear similar to Mississippi’s native Bowfin, also known as grinnel. MDWFP encourages anyone who thinks they catch a snakehead to keep the fish, photograph it, and call our office at 601- 432-2200. It is illegal to transport, offer for sale, or possess live snakeheads in Mississippi. For more information regarding fishing and invasive species in Mississippi, visit www.mdwfp.com or call (601) 432-2200. Follow us on Facebook at facebook.com/mdwfp or on Twitter at www.twitter.com/MDWFPonline.
URBANA, Ill. – If you’re creating a message to educate, inform, or persuade, don’t underestimate the power of a well-executed cartoon. A new study at the University of Illinois suggests if you’re trying to convince the public to change their stance on a topic such as wind energy, you may be more successful if you use a cartoon rather than a photograph.
“Photographs were shown to be more credible, but cartoons were more likely to change behavior,” says U of I agricultural communications professor Lulu Rodriguez who led the study. “A cartoon grabs people’s attention long enough to deliver the message. That’s what you need in today’s message-heavy atmosphere. Why not use a tool that has proven ability to cut through the others and inform people in a way that actually works?”
In the study, participants were shown one of two versions of the same set of brochures. Each set was designed to debunk a myth about wind energy, the intent being to give readers scientific information about wind energy and assuage their fears. Each pair of brochures was identical in design, text, color, size, etc. The only difference was that the originally designed brochures featured a beautiful, professional photograph of wind turbines, while the look-alike brochures created for the study swapped out the photograph with a cartoon.
“You have to spend more time with a cartoon to figure out the meaning of the illustrations, and the situation,” Rodriguez says. “People look at cartoons longer, so they’re more cognitively engaged with the cartoon. Usually it includes humor and people work hard at figuring out the punch line. The photos used to represent wind energy on the original brochures were just beautiful scenic shots of the turbine blades or a landscape dotted with turbines so people didn’t look at them as long.”
Interestingly, the respondents said the content was better in the cartoon brochures (even though the text was identical), but the credibility was lower than the brochures using photographs.
“It may be because of the more light-hearted approach of cartoons,” Rodriquez says. “Cartoons make a topic like wind energy, which may be a bit scary to people, more accessible. But this notion of credibility is a different issue. We teach students to be conversational in writing. Don’t put on your ‘tuxedo’ language. And yet, people associate big words with credibility.”
Rodriguez says the use of comics has already been shown to be effective in explaining scientific concepts and principles in high school chemistry classrooms. (Rodriguez is also the director of the agricultural communications program in the College of Agricultural, Consumer and Environmental Sciences and the College of Media.) She says she has not seen the comparison of photos versus cartoons studied in non-classroom settings.
In addition to educational settings, the power of cartoons to persuade can be of value to agencies working to educate the public about a science-laden concept—one for which they would like to change opinion, intentions, or behaviors.
“My interest is in making science more accessible to the public,” Rodriguez says. “This study offers real recommendations to communicate science better to a general audience. Understanding the science helps get people past whatever might be controversial about a scientific breakthrough or innovation. The controversies usually arise out of a lack of understanding.”
In terms of wind energy, Rodriguez says, people worry about claims that the turbines kill birds, when in fact, cars kill more birds. “We kept hearing scientists say that people do not fully understand wind energy. So we thought, how can we deflect that misunderstanding?”
Rodriguez cites communicating about GMOs as another possible case in which incorporating cartoons may inform people.
“Most people don’t know about all the regulatory layers at the local and national level involved in producing GMOs. If you try to describe that for people in text, they may not get it or they may not be motivated to read lines and lines of words. Perhaps a cartoon showing safety regulations or the similarity of genetic engineering to natural crossing of plants would be more convincing,” she says.
“I have a colleague who actually did this to explain how they got the vitamin A into golden rice using a cartoonish infographic. Not very scientific—but people get it. It’s a lot easier to explain complex scientific concepts that way.”
Rodriguez admits that text and photos may be the easier route to take.
“Truth be told, this is easy to recommend, but cartoons and effective information graphics are difficult to create. You have to hire someone with real skills to do it. Making things easier to understand is a difficult thing to do,” she says. “And, when people hire an advertising agency to create a brochure for their product or cause, they may lean toward using photos because they convey prestige or credibility. It may be difficult to convince them to use a cartoon because they think it reduces the classiness of the brochure.”
The article, “The impact of comics on knowledge, attitude and behavioural intentions related to wind energy,” is published in an issue of the Journal of Visual Literacy. The research was conducted by Lulu Rodriguez, University of Illinois; and Xiao Lin, Quixey, San Jose.
Water is a hot topic in the Town of New Hope, Wisconsin. Those of you that work and live in small communities across the Midwest would recognize the people and the stories as similar to your own. There are farmers, teachers, nurses, mechanics, restaurant owners, bakers, artists, retired folks that own property on the lakes – the mix of people and ideas that make rural communities great. Most of the residents of New Hope Township get their water from private wells. They swim in the lakes and fish for brook trout in the Tomorrow River. They have never had conflicts over water use or quality – until now.
I had the privilege of helping facilitate a recent meeting in New Hope Township. The purpose of the meeting was to bring neighbors together to discuss concerns about water use and quality, and how farming is impacting both surface and ground water.
In every meeting like this that I’ve been in, to a person, there is agreement that we want both profitable, vibrant agriculture and clean water where we live. This meeting was no exception. However, over half the room (the non-farmers) had never heard of a nutrient management plan. They knew very little about the nuts and bolts of managing a dairy farm or producing corn – not surprising since less than 2% of the U.S. population are farming or ranching families. It was easy to see how neighbors could find themselves talking past one another and sitting in County Board meetings on opposite sides of an issue, even though their goals were the same.
As you can imagine, one conversation did not solve the water issues New Hope residents are facing. However, people were in the same room talking with each other, rather than about each other. They were listening respectfully, asking good questions, and learning from their neighbors. They found some common ground, like the need for more consistent and comprehensive testing of drinking and surface water.
In a time when people with the best intentions are so often talking past one another, I was heartened to see them doing the tough job that we all have as citizens – coming together as neighbors to take care of the small patch of ground that we have responsibility for during our short time on this planet.
I know it’s happening in communities across the North Central Region, and would love to hear more of these kinds of stories. If you have one to share, please send it to us and we’ll post some of them in our Network blog.
If you would like to contribute ideas for the future of the North Central Region Water Network, feel free to send me a note at email@example.com .
Rebecca Power, Network Director
URBANA, Ill. – Fig buttercup may have an innocent-sounding name, but it is anything but sweet. The small yellow flowering plant creeps across forest floors, crowding out native spring ephemerals and other understory plants. Try to pull it out, and you are more likely than not to leave its fleshy tubers in the soil, where they lie in wait for the right moment to resprout. And now, fig buttercup is in Illinois.
Chris Evans, forestry extension and research specialist with University of Illinois Extension, says that fig buttercup and another aggressive understory invader, Japanese chaff flower, are looking like the next big threats to Illinois forests. They join common buckthorn, bush honeysuckle, Japanese stiltgrass, and garlic mustard as the state’s top plant pests.
Evans and Eric Larson, assistant professor in the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Sciences at U of I, recently answered questions in a public Twitter chat and podcast about the threat of invasive species in Illinois. They stressed that being non-native is not enough to render a species invasive – it needs to cause some sort of harm to the environment or community it inhabits. Unfortunately, there are plenty of examples of harmful invaders in the state, in nearly every habitat type.
Larson’s research focuses on invaders of freshwater ecosystems. He ranks silver and bighead carp, zebra mussels, and Asian clams as the top freshwater invaders in Illinois. He’s keeping his eye on emerging threats, too, using modern molecular methods and predictive models to anticipate where new species could get a foothold in the Great Lakes. For example, in a recent study, Larson proved that hidden invaders such as rusty crayfish could be detected from bits of their DNA floating in lake water samples.
Many small, less-obvious organisms also threaten natural resources. “Some of our worst invaders are insects and pathogens that have completely removed foundational tree species. For example, emerald ash borer is in the process of completely removing ash trees from our ecosystems in Illinois,” Evans says.
Invasive species do not just make life harder for native plants and wildlife; they are expensive to control. Evans says the costs to control forest invaders range from $100 to $1,000 per acre, depending on the species, the degree of infestation, and the surrounding environment.
“The most cost effective thing we can do is prevent new invasions from happening, and try to contain the spread of invaders,” Larson says. “In fresh waters, that means being really conscientious about cleaning, draining, and drying your fishing gear and boats before you move between waters, and not releasing live bait in the water. These steps are going to protect our waters, our ecosystems, and save costs down the road from trying to manage these species.”
Evans adds, “Most people now understand the concept of invasive species. What they choose to put in their homes and landscaping has an impact. Everybody has a role to play.”
For more information, listen to the podcast with Larson and Evans at https://soundcloud.com/aces-illinois/invasive-species.